Fingerings

[KevinLatham]

#18787

Greetings Renato,

Quick question about fingerings. I am now realizing that there are a number of chords that you finger differently from the way I first learned them. To explain this simply, there are many chords that you finger with your individual fingers that I have finger with a small bar across the strings. For example, in the piece Insensatez the Am6 that appears in bar 5 and the C# half diminished in bar 13 you play these using all of the fingers on your left hand while I use a bar instead to make the same chords. Is it necessary that I change my fingerings to match yours? It’s not easy but I will if it will be important as I continue to learn. Thank you!

[Renato]

#18794

Hi Kevin,
I would say this is not a problem if you are playing accompaniment guitar. But it may be a problem when playing solo arrangements. However, each situation should be analyzed separately. I don’t remember now a solo arragement where this would be a problem, but I’ll take a look at some arrangements to see if I can find some example for you. I’ve seem many guitar players who play steel string guitar doing as you do. On the other hand this is not common in classical guitar technique, which is very similar to the Brazilian guitar style technique.

Best,
Renato.

[KevinLatham]

#18817

Thank you so much for your response. Because I started my studies playing steel string acoustic and then electric guitar I guess this makes sense. This is my real effort in playing Brazilian guitar style. It is the most enjoyable time I’ve ever had playing. I’m learning so much. I really love this music. Obrigado ??

[Thomas Gore]

#20856

I recently got a “crossover” C10 Cordoba, first time ever playing nylon strings
For some reason the F major 7 and D major 7 chords always sound “desafinado” even though I am retuning as best I can
I realize the chord has a natural dissonance F and E for example but it seems that by making the fingering I am pulling the notes out of tune

Is this something you have an answer for ?

Might only be possible to answer from a lesson in person
I am not ready for that yet

[Thomas Gore]

#20857

I never noticed that on steel string acoustic or electric

[Renato]

#20874

Hi Thomas,
You said those chords sound out of tune, right? Is it the same if you play, for example, Gmaj7 and Emaj7 with the same fingering? If so, defective strings can be the problem. Otherwise, the fretboard of the guitar may be the source of this problem. Anyway, I recommend that you change the strings to see if the problem goes away.

[Istvan Gonczi]

#24857

Poor intonation is common on less expensive instruments. Before taking on the quest for perfect setup and string selection,
please be aware that new strings will undergo a couple of weeks of stretching and “settling”. The more windings you have around the string roller, the longer it takes for those windings to settle and tighten up. While that is going on, you have to keep retuning the guitar. You can pre-stretch the strings, by pulling on them. This retuning problem tends to be worse on nylon string guitars, esp. if not useing the proper technique to tie up the strings. e.g: A ‘string tie bead’ can help taking care of this at the saddle end, and a luthier’s knot or string twist technique helps on the other end. Pre-stretching is controversial. Some manufacturers recommend against it because they say it causes premature wear.
I do prestretch, because I have no patience with a 2 week period while my guitar is constantly out of tune.

Moving on to setup:
The actual fret positions tend to be OK on most modern guitars, everybody uses templates to mark out the fret positions of, so it is very rare to get the actual frets wrong. The problem is usually the saddle’s position, which is much harder to get right as they are multiple factors at play. The luthier or manufacturer has to commit early on to where to put the saddle, and once this is done, it is hard and time consuming to make a correction.

First, see if your octaves are “off” on the individual strings. Compare the fingered note to the harmonic note, and see which is higher. It is easy to hear that it is off, but it may be hard to tell which way, esp. when the difference is small. A good quality chromatic tuner can help, but it has to be accurate down to “cents”. If the fingered note is higher then the harmonic, the intonation of that string is said to be “sharp”, which can be improved by: 1) Lowering the action , or 2) moving the string’s saddle contact point towards the tail block of the guitar. This is often called “pulling back the intonation point”.

In my experience, trying a large number of different brand strings, I find carbon trebles minimize imperfect intonation. I am not a hundred percent sure why, I am guessing their modulus of elasticity is different. They are perhaps less “stretchy”.

I used to have an old Japanese Matsuoka guitar with the intonation a bit off, and the difference there the carbon strings made was “playable” vs. “unplayable”.

If messing with the guitar is intimidating, you can hire this work out. A good guitar tech or a setup savvy musician friend can set your guitar up.
Out of necessity, many working musicians learn enough setup skills to assess and set up their own instruments, it is not rocket surgery.
I dont want to get into a step-by-step setup instructions here, the topic is probably easier to demonstrate in a video and there are many setup videos on Youtube.

Good “carbon trebles” string brands I tried: Knobloch, HenSe, Oasis Inspiro-s, Luthier Dark Silver, (Carbon treble variants of those, in the order of high to low price) These all intone noticeably better for me than anything with nylon trebles. The tradeoff is that you get a bit chimier/sharper tone, although I do not think we can make a blanket statement to that effect. A great deal depends on the specific string brand, your ears be the judge. I think the string selection matters a lot less if the guitar is near perfectly intoned to begin with. This tends to be the case on the high-end factory made, or boutique instruments.

I am surprised this is a problem with the C10, the ones I tried out were all pretty good. Cordobas tend to have a truss rod, so it is worth checking if the neck has too much relief. Some of it can be taken out by tightening the truss rod, but get informed on the procedure before going nuts and breaking something :-). I would try the action adjustment and the string swap, or just have the guitar “set up” by a skilled person.

Factory made instruments tend to ship with high action. The idea is that the manufacturers want to avoid the guitar fretting out (buzzing) which would likely result in a warranty claim, or the immediate return of the guitar. Howver, customers tend to be less demanding/cognizant of intonation and action problems, so this creates a bias towards conservative setup.

Consequently the action at the saddle and nut, the neck relief, and the intonation point(s) all need fine tuning. A reputable, small dealer will usually do the setup for you, before delivering the guitar. But you are unlikely to get a setup thrown in at a large retailer, or mail order vendor. Many claim to do setup, but on the mass market this tends to remain just a claim.

High action impacts intonation. All other things being equal, it tends to cause the octaves to be sharp. Sometimes I find by just lowering the action, and using carbon trebles, I can get an instrument into tolerable playing condition. Another thing I find, it is typically the the intonation point on the G string that needs to be pulled back a bit. This can be done by filing the saddle a bit where the g string sits to move the point where it contacts the string back towards the tail block. If you decide to do some filing, try to not file a big divot into the saddle which woudl actually lower the action of the g string. When intoning, the contact point should be moved “parallel” to the top, not perpendicular.
OTOH Lowering the action at the saddle is typically done by filing down the bottom of the saddle.

Although action adjustment has an effect on intonation, it is best to think of changing the action, and adjusting the intonation points as 2
separate, distinct actions.

If you decide to lower your saddle, I recommend making a new saddle and leaving the original intact for reference , or as a fallback option, if something goes terribly wrong. (e.g. you end up sanding it too low on the belt sander, resulting in a buzzing guitar). Observe the angle of the bottom of the original saddle. This angle needs to match the angle of the bottom of the slot the saddle goes into. If the bottom of the saddle does not make good contact with the bottom of the groove, the volume and tone of the guitar will suffer.

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